Your Cargo. Our Promise - The Data Strategy Behind a Global Transformation | Moiz Khan and Rocky Khan - #13

🚢 "Your cargo. Our promise."

That's not just a slogan at Hapag-Lloyd — it's a philosophy that shapes how one of the world's oldest shipping companies is thinking about its most modern challenge: transformation at scale.

In the latest episode of Masters of Data & AI, I sat down with Moiz Khan, a Big Four audit veteran now driving digitization inside a 175-year-old industry. And the conversation went deep.

A few things that stuck with me:

On real-time data in shipping:
Hapag-Lloyd now operates 2 million smart containers with IoT sensors. The shift from manual gate logs to live container tracking isn't just a technology upgrade — it's a completely new decision-making infrastructure. For customers, for finance, for operations.

On the 80% on-time delivery target:
The industry average sits around 50%. Hapag-Lloyd's Strategy 2030 targets 80%. That's not incremental. That's a structural redesign — and the Gemini Alliance with Maersk is a big piece of how they're getting there.

On evaluating AI tools in a crowded market:
Moiz put it simply: 90%+ of AI products fail because they lack a proper value proposition. His framework? Use case first. Groundwork second. Technology third. Not the other way around.

On transformation patterns across industries:
There's always a 50/50 split — half want to change, half don't. The job isn't to force the future on people. It's to find the balance. "Too much transformation gets you stuck in proof of transformation. Too little, and you're out of business."

And his startup idea if he were to build in logistics today? Solving port storage optimization for reefer containers — one of the most expensive and under-automated problems in global supply chains.
This is the tension that makes shipping fascinating: 175 years of legacy, and the urgency of building something entirely new on top of it.

____LinkedIn Profile____

LinkedIn Profile of Moiz Khan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moiz-khan-4b85251a/

LinkedIn Profile of Rocky Khan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/khanrocky/

____Business book_____

The first 90 days by Michael D. Watkins

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

You know me, Rocky Kamen. And today I'm bringing in another Kamen, Muis Kamen, my brother from Another Madam. We both share a deep passion for data and AI, and we are both Toastmasters and we love public speaking. So expect a good conversation. Fun fact, we actually recorded this last week. The technology, however, had other plans, so take two. And then honestly, it will be even better. Now, Mois is not your typical shipping guy. He comes from the Big Four world, audit and transformation by background, is now driving digitization inside one of the most traditional industries on the planet, Harpak Lloyd. More than 175 years of history, one of the world's largest container shipping lines. The tension between that legacy and modern data thinking, that's the goldmine of today's conversation. Bois, great to have you on Masters of Data B and AI. You're not a typical shipping guy. You came from the Big Four into a 175-year-old company. Tell us a little bit more about your Vita, about your station. How did you come to Harper Cloud?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Thank you so much, Rocky, for inviting me to the podcast. And uh thank you to all the listeners for uh tuning in and also uh looking forward for this uh next uh uh next few minutes about our discussions on this topic. So, yes, absolutely, we both share the passion for public speaking. Uh, we are both in the Toastmasters. Uh, I have started Toastmasters uh two and a half years ago with our club in Hapakloid, and uh there has been no stopping thereafter. So public speaking is one of the things which I really really enjoy now anymore. And uh and uh coming to my job and what I do now, uh I also share similar, like you, Rocky, a lot of passion for AI, BI, intelligence, and data intelligence uh primarily, and I can see the power of it when you combine uh data AI, BI with all the uh business use cases, and especially when I come from the finance angle, it adds more charm to your overall um overall objectives, what you wanna achieve with your uh with your uh mix of AI, BI, and finance and uh and the other topics. So this is why it's uh gonna be really interesting podcast. Looking forward for it. And uh when I come uh to Habit Lloyd uh six years ago, uh I had uh no idea what shipping is, how the maritime industry works. I have been working in the consulting uh background uh initially in the start of my career, worked with Deloitte, worked with uh VWC. Then afterwards, I moved uh to automotive business and real estate. So I have been uh become an automotive and real estate business uh expert, uh, especially from the uh auditing and data analysis side. Um suddenly, when I got this uh offer to join Hyperac Laureate, I don't know what shipping is. I don't know how the maritime shipping works. So for the first six months of my career, I spent just learning what shipping is, how the logistics system works, how uh we can connect the data and how we can add value into the business processes. Six years before we started, and then uh journey is never stopping, and looking forward for our discussions on those interesting insights. Uh, shipping is a very um uh interesting industry. Every move has a cost, every move has a revenue. So that's why uh you have to uh we always say in in German, yeah, uh Gaishab is all über uh Einkommen in Ausgaben. So we have to talk about uh income and uh expenses uh all the time when it comes to finance and audit. So this is why we are all here and looking forward for this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Thanks for the thanks for the intro intro, Moïse. And I I really like this this metaphor. Every every move is cost. We will go deeper later into this podcast because we will talk also a lot about the impact of data and AI on your industry, on your daily business. But um, again to to the station Harpach Lloyd where you currently are, Moïse, can you tell us again what was this driving force or your reason to say, okay, I want to go into maritime logistics?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Interesting uh question. So American logistics industry is not new, it has been since ages. Yeah. So earlier, the ships used to uh transport passengers and goods through brake bulk cargo, and in the 1970s, uh the shipping industry got changed when you have a containerized cargo started happening. And thereafter, uh, with the modernization with WTO and then also uh heavy industrialization and also the World Trade Organization and the trade growth up, automatically the maritime got it more and more relevant. So when I started learning about this industry, I realized that uh we have dominant players in the market, but not only dominant players, but we also have surrounding logistical system which supports those dominant players in the market. When it comes to maritime logistics, it's all about uh uh shipping the cargo for your customers. And uh we always call uh your cargo our promise, which means that uh every customer is important to us, every uh cargo is important for us. And this is why this slogan and this uh value really drive me to join a maritime business because it impacts our daily life, it impacts the daily life of you, me, because all of our house uh goods, your mic, your background, everything comes in the container as cargo. That's why it's this very, very interesting uh industry. And as I said, that uh this industry has a lot of potential as well. And I believe that from finance, from from AIA, from from technological uh advances, this industry has huge potential to grow further. And this is where we are right now. I'm looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Well, thank you. I can I can really feel your passion. You're uh you're also igniting me now. And uh I can't and whenever I get a package, I I I I never think of that it comes from from from the from this from the overseas, yeah. But now as we are talking, it makes me really aware that every package I'm holding, even the microphone, yeah, which comes also from China, yeah. And uh it has maybe it is maybe it came by Harper Cloud. We don't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Yes, absolutely. So uh it could be one of our uh things in your house, could be for one of our containers.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Yeah, 100%. Um, what would you say? Because every new industry has some some surprises, yeah. So you have seen the automotive, you have been at uh uh in the audit area, PwC. Uh, what would you say uh was the biggest surprise when you entered the shipping industry?

SPEAKER_00 7:09

The scale of business. So your scale of business is enormous, it's big, it's spread out globally because it contributes heavily to the global trade. So imagine a company which moves 9 million, 10 million containers. Yeah, or the or the industry overall moves millions of containers uh every uh uh every year, uh, and the whole logistics uh business that moves you have terminals, you have truckers, you have uh um uh customers, you have suppliers, you have uh uh road infrastructure, you need everything for the port. So that's why how the shipping industry moves, you have ships, uh this the scale of business uh is enormous in this business. And it's very interlinked with each other. So in real estate business, you are okay linked with the government, with the land itself. However, this industry and the business is interconnected with multiple other industries. So it it it really everything, everything which happens in the world geopolitically, everything happens in the world because of trade or blockade or terrace, everything is impacted on a shipping business. So that scale was enormous, and that was a uh surprising factor for me. How how big the scale of this uh business is.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Seems to be quite mission critical the area where you are working, since there are a lot of multi-connections interdependencies around. Um what I also always find very interesting is like um are there skills which you can adapt or take over. So are there any skills from your back from the audit days, Mois, that are unexpectedly valuable in your current position?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Absolutely. So one of the very critical uh uh skills that I always carry over is this critical thinking ability. So you need always this critical thinking ability, what could go wrong or what could go right in this situation. So you have to be very, very dynamic. So when you look at uh from the internal audit, you always think about being pessimistic. But does not mean that the the audit person or the compliance person should always be a pessimistic person. He or she can be very optimistic as well. And what does this optimism mean is to be ready to challenge, ready to understand, and ready to think what uh what is going to be your next step, because that really impacts this industry. So, as I say, it's an interconnected industry. So, when if the industry is interconnected, then you have to think on the process and do it, not in the isolation part. So, because if you think isolation, you may end up losing the full view uh of the picture, and this is very important, I believe. This critical thinking ability for every task in shipping is very important because every move has a cost, every move has an income.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

I really loved I really love this saying what Richard just said, um Mohis. Last time when we talked um in our prep call, you were sitting in Dubai, now you are in in Hamburg. Uh, can you tell us a little bit more about your typical workday? How can we imagine that?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yes, so typical workday, uh it gets busy uh some days because uh we also have a lot of stakeholders. So as a company, we not only operate in one part of uh the world, but we operate globally. So whenever um uh I start, uh somebody in Singapore is already having uh his his lunch or uh or afternoon uh tea, for example. So uh similarly, when we end the day, somebody is waking up in uh South America. So for us, a typical day starts and ends. However, it's always about good conversations and discussions with all of my colleagues who are based in different parts of the world. So my day starts uh calling our colleagues, our departmental colleagues, and then uh slowly moving from one country to another. So I once recorded my time, and I think in that day I spoke to country around 17 to 18 people uh in different countries in a one day. So it was a hectic day. So I said, okay, let's count how many countries did I call? So 17 to 18 countries says in one day is a is a good score, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Oh my god. Sounds like a tough sketch of a busy day, like but also very exciting. Uh coming back to excitement, um, how do you get someone who has been now at sea for for decades, for 30 years, Mois, excited about a new digital system? Because it's always about change, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

So it's it has always a two uh two sides of it. Yeah, so there will be always some people who want to always try a new technology, a new tool. Always, yeah. So you find these people uh by chance. So so for me it happens that somebody or the teams approach me. Hey, I like this product really well, this tool really well. Can we try that? There are people, and there are some people whom you try the best, it doesn't work out. Yeah, so there are always a two-word on this, and uh, my job is to balance these two words always. Because you don't always need to come up with a new tool, but you need to always also uh push the people to bring to some tools as well. So it's it's it's one of the jobs which I have to maintain and juggle around this uh this world.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Now we have talked in the first 10 minutes a lot about you, about your why, about your daily work and how you bring change or how you manage change? Yeah, let's go now to another part about the transformation in practice, yeah. So HarperCloyd has currently around 2 million smart contain smart containers with IoT sensors in operation and has launched a pilot project with ViceTech Global for real-time data integration. What happens actually with all the data and how does it concretely change the way decisions are made? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

So this is a very important uh topic uh for us. Yeah. So I'm mostly in finance, and uh, we also want to consider uh this data for uh uh for finance use, definitely from the revenue perspective and the connections perspective and all the other topics. Why for happen royalties is important or for our customers is everyone, you if you are the customer, if you are my uh vendor, you want to know where your container is. It's a very basic uh human thing. And then if you know where your container is, then you will be able to make a better and sound decision. Traditionally in the maritime shipping industry, uh our gate moves are logged in different ports, depots, and different areas. Yeah, but now with this modern technology, with Internet of Things, uh, IoT, with the modern uh container devices, we are able to track our containers' life, not only we, but also our customers. And this gives us a very good uh advantage that we will not only be able to satisfy our customer needs from the quality perspective, but also it helps us in making better and wise decisions, which in the end help us improving our uh our profitability. Why? Because we are in a better position to see where our containers are, and also to see how we can optimize usage of those containers. So, this is a big uh benefit that we see because of this uh container tracking device, and for sure uh we will be uh scaling and using this more and more, especially when it comes to finance use cases.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

I really love that how you mentioned the different value drivers, the the impact, yeah, how how this uh real-time tracking is uh what the real-time tracking is creating. Could you perhaps, if it's possible, share maybe some metrics, like for example, in increase of profitability, maybe you are measuring it, maybe you can share numbers in terms of like percentage becoming better, or is it is it possible?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah, so for the time being, uh since I'm not involved in this project uh end-to-end, so then I will not be able to share with you uh the entire uh KPIs or how it impacts. But just generally speaking, from the business point of view, it really helps us in tracking our containers where they are. It helps us our customers to make the better decisions. Because, as you know, this is an interlinked industry. Yeah, so if we are able to make a better decision, our customers and partners will be also able to make a better decision. Yeah, so from the value perspective, it's a huge value driver. It's a huge value driver because we are not only supporting our customers, but we are also enabling them to use our data for their use. Yeah, for which they don't have to uh also worry about checking the status through emails or logs or changes. They can go instantly online and check uh where uh their containers are, which really helps them on time, efficiency, and also on decision making. So more faster decisions and more faster value uh driven you have. And the more late you are, the more uh delay you have in your profitability as well. So it's it really helps us in driving the efficiency faster, which also has a big value component for us.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

I can I can totally understand the efficiency in the productivity against you or you you guys are getting. So um AI is getting becoming better and better every day. Do you think can can AI models now predict port delays or weather disruptions before they happen?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Uh I think yes, uh it can. And uh right now the models are being tested, models are being worked on. So I would still call it as an early phase of uh industrialization. So when the earlier phase of industrialization or earlier phase of internet came up, it was not in the best shape and form. Same way I go with the AI. So it's still there, the models are being tested. However, I do believe that in 10 years' time, we will have a very sophisticated model which will be enable us to predict the weather patterns, to predict the port delays in a much more sophisticated and better manner. And uh, I'm pretty confident. You can say I'm pretty optimistic as well, uh, that this still happened. And I also believe that more interconnected world uh we are moving to, the more uh better AI modeling we pick up uh in the next 10 years. So right now, I would say uh can some uh some app predict the weather best bet best? Um yes and no. So I'll give you one example. So I always benchmark shipping industry sometimes, or some uh processes with aviation industry. Yeah, so it's one of my hobbies because I always think that aviation is a sometimes a good they carry passengers, we carry containers. Yeah. In aviation industry, you have applications uh like Turboy or uh flight radar. Yeah, so earlier models of them were not very great, but now the accuracy over the past three, four years has improved amazingly. Yeah. So if you see uh nobody, I think, uh, goes without checking Turbo application to see where uh the turbulence is gonna be so that I can uh wear my uh my belt on the on the plane. Yeah, this is very, very important that uh shipping also goes in this direction. And hopefully, I believe that AI models in the next 10 years will also uh come up with such uh sophisticated applications where you are able to always uh predict the weather patterns or uh the uh delay in the ports or early arrivals in the ports.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

So it's really a fantastic and very impactful AI use case regarding focused weather focused accuracy, right? Um that's that's really amazing to see. I I still remember Maurice when I was working at Databricks back in 2020. At that time, Harpak Lloyd was executing on its strategy 2023, which was heavily focused on driving efficiency, especially optimizing ship routing because FUL is the single largest cost driving global shipping. And fast forward today, Harpak Lloyd Strategy 2030 sets a target that many in the industry consider revolutionary, which is 80% on-time delivery, while the industry average is closer to 50%. And that's not incremental improvement, that's a structural leap. What do you think Moïse needs to change operationally to achieve that kind of step change performance?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Perfect. Very good question, uh Rocky. And this is one of the most important uh points for any any logistics company to deliver on-time. So our traditional uh on-time scheduled liability uh was still catching up uh over the past years. However, when we did our alliance with Musk in Gemini, it has really helped us in boosting the uh scheduled liability of PT% on some specific trade lanes, which has now really helped us in uh in optimizing our cargo, optimizing our vessel uh schedule liability, our profitability. So it impacts everything. Also, very important is it's also impacts shipment journey for our customers. Our customers get their cargo faster, better so that they can use it in a faster node. Yeah. Imagine a customer, and and I'm giving you the context why it is important for us. A customer who wants to manufacture something using a plastic uh plastic uh petrocarbon uh something, yeah, he needs a shipment on 1st of January. Yeah, imagine if his container gets delayed by 10 days, his production gets late. Yeah, but if we are able to achieve this amazing schedulability for our customers, how happy they were, first of all, how much quality are we delivering to them, yeah, and how much competitive product we will have. Because we are on time always. This is why I believe that this uh on-time delivery is super important for our industry and how we can make it more better as a company, as a uh as uh as a as a one unit, we we think about customers and how to how to uh deliver the cargo on time to them. And that's why our slogan is uh your uh cargo aver promise.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Thank you, thank you for this beautiful explanation. Um what specific role does the Gemini Corporation with with Mask play in achieving that?

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah, so it has a very significant role. Yeah, so Marks uh Musk has uh good uh network uh operations uh for many, many years. Uh they were also achieving uh many years a very good schedule liability uh because they have a good uh trade and service network. And this uh trade and service network, when they alliance with The Hapat Lloyd has really helped us as well to optimize that network. So, because of optimizing that network and a Gemini Gemini Alliance has really helped us in achieving that uh that goal. And uh this is why we are able to also uh deliver a good uh reliability over past years.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Uh-huh. So is there is is there any again coming back to the thing called change, is there any kind of internal resistance when you tell people, okay, guys, we have to go now from 50 to 80 percent?

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, well, that's a very operational topic, and uh uh there's always a change management topic happens on this. And uh so though I'm more in a finance role, and uh this is more of an operations uh change management, I mean our operational and promotionary colleagues uh do that, so they will be more in a better position to answer you on the change management. From our side, we always believe that anything which changes, uh whichever department you work in, it has an impact. Yeah, and the change management has to be uh tackled very carefully, very sophisticatedly. And that's why we are also in our company uh doing a lot of change management and transformation programs, uh, which we can discuss about it. But uh for the operational changes, especially on the Gemini operations, uh somebody who are experts in the operations will be able to answer you better on that.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah. Okay, no problem. Thanks for that, uh Moise. Um coming back on your on your stations where you worked before, so you brought data analytics into the audit department at Alpha Him. Now you are optimizing at Harpak Lloyd. Is transformation in a 170-year-old shipping company fundamentally different from a diversified conglomerate in Dubai?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Uh, I do believe, yes, absolutely. So uh when you talk about the diversified conglomerate business, uh, you still have um, and especially on the cultural part, yeah, on the cultural part, it's a bit different. Yeah, who takes technology further faster? So who adopts post-technology earlier, win the competition always. And we have seen in many companies it's happening. When we talk about uh 10 years ago or uh uh nine years ago, when I used to work with uh with companies where I tried to implement data analytics programs, try to bring more insights of business operations, commercials, and finance into the eyes of the stakeholders, it was dealt completely differently. But now people see the AI, people see the value, how the AI products and how the technology projects are driving their performance. I'll give you one example. In uh November this year, I was in Cello Sphere, the Celloness application, yeah. And I was truly impressed how other companies like PMV, um Vac Cities, or other companies have really driven the transformation in their uh day-to-day work using the technology, using the process mining. Similar way, I also attend a lot of uh conferences with Salesforce. I see how Salesforce has driven sales organizations to become much more better. I've also attended uh a lot of uh trainings and a lot of uh workshops at Altrex 10 years ago when the first time, uh when the first time uh it was eight years ago, yes. Eight years ago when the first time the tax was introduced in in UAE for the first time in the Middle Eastern country. And at that time we use uh Altrex for our uh our uh text filings and everything, and I was part of that uh uh that meeting. But what happened afterwards is we saw how management in that company have started uh considering technology as a backbone of their operational work, day-to-day work. So I always believe that technology is changing, but it's changing for good. And people in finance, operations, commercials, uh uh customer service, wherever they work, they have to uh start using technology more and more. So this is what I feel.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Thank you so much, Mois. I I'm a huge fan of finding patterns. Yeah. So are there any universal patterns you see in every organization, regardless of whether it's now retail, automotive, tech, or shipping?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Um, pattern in terms of um in terms of uh similar processes or similar driving transformation, driving transformation. So driving transformation, yes, absolutely. So I I see one pattern always. One pattern is that there will be a 50% group who really wants to transform things. Yeah. And there will be a 50% group who doesn't want to transform things at all. Yeah. And and that's why uh the balance has to be maintained, first of all. And then uh we have to always uh go for this openness and respect with those both groups. That okay, too much transformation is also not great sometimes. And too much no transformation is also not good. So there should be always a balance. Try to imagine that if Apple is giving you an iPhone, yeah, which is uh which is standard feature, and tomorrow they come up with a full tablet and with amazing technology, people will lose interest automatically. So you cannot do transformation just like uh closing your eyes and uh opening it up again. It has to be a very gradual process, it has to be a very systematic process. And this is why I always believe that the companies who so I the pattern which I see is the companies who do too much transformations get stuck into too much transformation. And the companies who don't do the transformation at all, they're out of business one time. But there should be always a balance, and the balance is always healthier uh for the companies to move forward.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Thank you, Mois. I'd like to move now more into the technology and more tools part, yeah, because I I have the feeling now that every week there is a new sexy AI tool coming into the world, and I I get really lost. I don't know, okay, which tool is now the best, what should I look for? How does your organization or you, Moïse, evaluate and adopt new technology?

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Uh it's a very uh good question. And right now the AI market is very crowded. Yeah. And uh I was uh attending one uh one one session with EY earlier, and they say that they have some research and they realize that 90% plus AI product uh who got launched gets failed. Yeah. So it's it's also a truth. Yeah, it's like it's backed up by strong data. And why it happens? Why it happens because you don't have a proper value proposition, behind those product. The value could be anything, yeah. It could be the value in terms of your uh quality, value in terms of numbers, value in terms of your efficiency, value in terms of your personality. Yeah, where is that? If I'm just using AI for chatting to myself, it doesn't help me, yeah? So it has to be always driven with the proper value case standard. And if you have a value case behind something and you believe that the value case will deliver you the product, it will do. It will take time on implementation, it will take time on the change management, but it does. That's why I always believe uh to your question that uh uh the AI market is very crowded. However, uh the new sexy tools are good, but it's uh sometimes it's not but having two sexy is also very uh good. So I think I've always believed that it has to be a balanced uh composition and any AI tool which works out really well. So for example, uh I started using uh ChatGVD when it's Glodge, yeah. And now I completely stopped using it. I use Cloud A. Yeah. So it also has to see uh which offers you best, but it Cloud A also took time to build up. Yeah, it just had to come up like this, yeah. So it's also the same thing that you cannot start using Palantir, for example, for every organization instantly. Yeah, because it if it's your vast amount of data, you will start and then gradually uh increase. So this is the the same way we do in our organization as well. Yeah, so we think that every uh thing should have a venue, should have a proper basis, should have a proper reason why we need to do this technology. Yeah, what is the uh what is the past experience of other customers with the technology? Where does this uh technology comes on a gardel scale? Yeah, any other research organizations, where does it stand? So that's why all these come these factors, yeah. So you cannot just decide based on one uh one fine morning, I wake up, okay, I start using XYZ technology. You have to really work on it systematically. And when you work on it properly, when you make a proper work uh ground on it, then if the technology helps you in scaling the topics. So it's the people, flash technology who works out, but you need to have a very nice solid ground behind their technology, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

There's uh there's one thing, Mois, and totally agree with what you just said. When I used to work in in at Splunk, the Databricks, BMC, all those other companies. There was one thing, uh, all the value team always used to say that. Uh they said, uh Rocky, no one is gonna buy technology for technology's sake. It's always about the value. Yes, what is the value we can drive? Yeah. So happy to hear that. And you also mentioned like two criteria, which I which I heard is like number one, the core is 100% value. What is the impact? And second one was also this that's called objective criteria. What are the analysts saying, like Gartner or Forrester? You mentioned Gartner. Are there any other criteria, Mois, you evaluate when it comes to uh new technology?

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Uh yes, so we have uh multiple factors. So, as I say, first factor is what is the business use case behind it? So somebody in the business commercially has to think commercially, but does it make sense? So that's the first business use case which should come up. The second topic is the research in the market of what similar to the offering, yeah. So that's the one criteria, which is very basic criteria, which all also be done by the procurement mostly on this topic. They help us, they partner with us on this. The third topic here is is this technology reliable? Yeah, and reliability is a big factor in the AI market. So today I if I want to uh onboard an AI company or AI tool, I first go and see the market of AI. And the same thing will come up with 20 other tools. Yeah, so so and I say it's crowded, it's really crowded. Yeah, I'll give you one example. Yeah, if you want to improve your collection process, for example, yeah, what is the AI tool for that? A pretty basic question I have, right? I go to Google right now, it will give you 20 software right now. Yeah. And then you try to understand the tool, and then you say, ah, okay, we can do collection, but we can do this, this, this, this as well. But I just need a product for this purpose. Yeah, do you have it? The answer is no. So that's why I think this Google uh search engine optimization has really resulted in a lot of AI companies to be there for every keyword. However, when you really need a supplier for a specific product, it's hard even right now. Yeah, and the problem is that even the best uh organizations like Kartner or other research organizations, they're also not able to see okay which AI tool fits there. Because the market is so crowded. Yeah, you don't know. For example, if you want to know which software is best in the uh in the cloud platform, so they will still give you the rating, okay, AWS uh or Alibaba or for example uh Google Cloud. It still gives you the idea because they are the few dominant players in the market. But for AI, it's very crowded. You don't know how how it works. So that's why I think uh sometimes you also partner with some organizations to help us in uh in realizing what we need. And this is why uh so it's a combination of various factors. Yeah, it's a business use case, partners, or gardener, um doing the research, having a value case behind it. So it's as I said, your groundwork should be should be super clean, should super authentic. Yeah, so when you have a very proper groundwork behind the technology, then technology helps you and also realize the value that you aim for.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

It's always to sum it up, it's always about the use case and the value you can expect. I think that's how we can summarize that beside all the criteria that you mentioned. I'm just curious to understand: is there a process you are having where you say, okay, Rocky, every quarter or every year we go to events or we scan the market for interesting technologies, or is it more like okay, Rocky, we only start searching whenever we a problem pops up?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Absolutely. So there are both uh both areas, yeah. So one is that somewhere you have a real problem. So if you really face a problem in some process or somewhere, then you go by yourself. Okay, I need to fix something. Yeah, now. So one thing. Second thing is we also have our partners. We also have a lot of consulting firms who are our partners who are also giving us a market feedback. Okay, this is doing this, this is doing this, so we also get a feedback. Plus, we already have lots of technology partners who are part of that ecosystem. Yeah. What does it mean by ecosystem is that when I have a partner like XYZ Technology or Software or Process Mining Company or a PIA company, then PI company tells us, okay, this is uh we are in the ecosystem. You have this ETL tool which you can use. This is a new in the market which helps your staff to work for this. So we get a lot of 360 feedback in the uh in the in the in the sorry, yeah, 360 feedback in the industry to understand what we need, where we need, and when we need it. Yeah, and who can help us deliver the right value throughout the period.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Now, thanks, thanks for that, Mois. Now you have created a great good great bridge to my uh next topic, which is on the one hand, you have the tools, but on the other hand, you need the system integrators or data consultancies to integrate those fancy software then later. Um when it comes to selecting the right system integrator or data consultants, and there are many, like around about 2000 in the DAC market alone. Um, what would you say are critical factors? Is it is it, for example, the domain expertise, is it the number of certifications, or maybe the brand, the logo? Is it the size of the company? So, what are critical factors where you say, Rocky, this is something where we always look for?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah, so it has it has multiple components, yeah. So it's it's a weighted average definition on this. So you you cannot pull uh all the demands to one thing. I think for me, the domain expertise is very important, especially for uh finance use cases, I believe. Yeah. Why? Because you need somebody who understands the process. So the domain expertise is super important for us and how that domain expertise can translate to our industry as well. Because you will have an expert somewhere who knows the process very well in uh an automotive company. When you're shipping, you might not yeah, so you need a balance of it. Okay, you need a domain expert, but also in the same industry. That's why the domain expertise is very important. Technology definitely plays a role because technology has to be stable in already. Yeah, and if the technology is not stable, that is you know, that our stakeholders are big. So we have stakeholders not only operating in in one country, it's a multi-country objective. Yeah, so stakeholders expect globally. So if if we have a shift shine, it's just the district is globally. Yeah, you have to be very, very uh focused on a reliable partner on technology, all this. The third topic here, where which is very important, is always uh a value-driven approach. Yeah. So when we talk about the consulting market, consulting market is crowded, yes. But still, if you go in a dark market, if you want to know who are the right people, it's very hard still. Who looks for the value and who really uh can deliver the value? That's such a very different topic. And these are the gem people. So there are some consulting firms who have these gems who I always call the champions or some things, and these people look out for the value, uh, like you know, you can sniff the value. If you can sniff the value very, very well, then is it is the best technology partner or consulting partner uh which you will have. And I I I see this over past uh years working here, uh, that you you will find these people always. You will find this in the Mina market or you will find this in the dark market, but it's uh it's important that you find this people and partner with them always.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

I I really like like the metaphor that I can feel in your toast, Master, where you can sniff the value. You never heard that. I really love this saying. So so could we say that if there are two data consultancies, uh, one is talking a lot about function features, and the other has domain expertise and has, for example, let's say deep maritime knowledge. I think the question is very clear who will win this debate, actually, this battle.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Absolutely, because you know you need a domain expertise somehow. Yeah, because without domain expertise, it's it's very hard for us to even um so imagine that uh we have all these products pipeline. Yeah, so if if we start explaining domain expertise for the users, it's hard for our our our functions to work on. So let's start domain expertise is critical.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

If we now go to another topic, let's say the global topic, the the industry and the future, yeah. So let's current, very relevant topic, uh, geopolitics, US, China tariffs, yeah. So there is a lot of uncertainty. Uh, how do you plan operational efficiency in a world that becomes more and more unpredictable week by week?

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Um, so this is a very good question, yeah. So for my appealing, uh geopolitical uncertainty uncertainty, as we talk today, right now, uh it has uh it has been a personal experience a little bit for me. So um, yes, domain expertise are harder to find. Yeah. Especially, I believe this is my personal opinion, domain finding domain expertise in Germany is not that hard still, or tough market, I would say. Because you have a very sophisticated uh university system, the student system, and then you have uh uh uh middle management level who's coming from the universities and the education. So you have a huge pipeline of the people who are coming from from the very uh high-level universities in UK or TAC market or US. So you have always a good people always there, you know, you you will find that. It is a bit contrast when it comes to the Mina market. Yeah. So when the geopolitical uncertainty uncertainty is started affecting those markets, you have a good ecosystem for sure on the on the market, but it's hard uh to get the right domain expertise there because those people fly back to their own countries afterward. Uh so that's why I think this is a very, very uh important uh topic uh for us and geopolitical uncertainty uncertainty affect us so uh heavily uh in terms of uh the markets in in the MENA segment, primarily, which are more affected by geopolitical risks. However, when it comes to dark market, it has been more stable throughout the period. Yeah, and uh when it comes to uh we also deal with uh with the uh northern hemisphere, especially uh in the Atlantic and the Cross Atlantic, you also have a very good baseline because there's a lot of university students, university staff who is also coming to the job market always. So you always don't feel a gap in technology space. But in MENA market, geopolitical uncertainty really affect our uh our our business. Not our business, but uh every other uh every other uh partners or the people who used to hire them, hire the people locally.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Um I would like I would ask uh a similar question. Um I asked that already about the AI models regarding uh weather focused accuracy. Do you think are there any AI models that incorporate geopolitical risks into route planning?

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Um I think there are many of them. So mostly the compliance functions uh they work with those uh automatic triggers and alert system, yeah. So, for example, um there's not such an AI tool yet who has been built to predict those geopolitical uncertainty, but there's definitely a good uh market uh segment, market space where in which we can work on it. And I think it's a good idea, I would say. I have not seen any, but it's uh it's a good idea that uh uh that if the geopolitical geopolitical uncertainty is expected somewhere, then what resources could be deployed there? We have BCM. So there are some AI technologies already there in the BCM and BCP segment already, but not at a full end-to-end risk meter scale uh uh stage. So if we have that, that's that that the tool will have a huge potential out there.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

And now uh wrapping up a little bit, maybe la the last uh uh two questions, and then we can we can we can sum it up. Um Mois, now looking into the future, what does container shipping look like in 2035? Do you think we have autonomous ships, AI-driven supply chains?

SPEAKER_00 44:04

What is your perspective? Yeah, so I'm optimistic again. So I don't see that you will have a full fleet of vessels autonomous. No, it's not gonna happen. Difficult. Yeah, difficult uh considering all the interdependencies. And so you sh you will have some countries who are always very faster in technological space. Yeah, some countries which are not very far in technology space. So that's why you will not have autonomous uh uh shifts, but you will have some for sure. I believe that there will be some pilots, some concept, or some some shipping line who will be using this as a concept. It's possible in 10 years. Uh when it comes to the second question, what was that apart from autonomous shipping?

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Uh once one thing, it was about um pop pop pop uh autonomous shipping and AI-driven supply chains.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

AI-driven supply chain. Yes. So AI-driven supply chain is pretty much possible. So you will not have full end-to-end AI-driven supply chain, but it's already happening. So you might see that some ports, and I believe Rotterdam port, for example, uh, may have this because they are one of the uh good, they have a good uh pioneer of technology always. So they might have something. So NBP world is investing heavily on these products. So so yeah, you might see in 10 years a lot of uh AI-driven uh autonomous supply chain uh happening, and there will be some companies who will be driving it, and then uh they will be the driving uh factors, they will be the enablers, and I think the ones they start and they started realizing the value, other companies will follow them.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

And now your very personal opinion, um Mois, just imagine if you were to start to start a startup in the logistics space now or in the maritime space, yeah, what problem would you solve?

SPEAKER_00 45:49

So I will try to solve a problem where we have a cargo getting stuck at port and not able to release it. Yeah, so the cargo storages at ports are one of the highest cost areas for every company. So if you can optimize somehow the storage of the cargo and the container movement, that will be one of the areas which will be uh really value-added use case for the container movements. Because storages at port are expensive. Yeah, and when they're expensive and the container is not being moved, not being followed up, and it's completely ad hoc driven by the people, it's very hard to optimize the process. And this is where, if any AI startup can work uh on on optimizing the storage of the cargoes, uh, especially for the containers uh which are not uh the general container. I'm talking about uh containers with the cold storage, refill container, refrigerated container.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

So that's gonna be a really uh a value-added uh area where you can optimize a lot of uh value out of both yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Thank you so much, Maurice. And now my final, very last question. What I always ask in the end is which uh business book inspired you most?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yeah, so I uh I don't read much business books, but uh I can give you some some names if you if you uh are so I would say always uh there's a uh book called First 90 Days by Michael Watkins. Yeah, offers strategies for managing transitions in business. So you know I am heavily involved in uh business transitions. So this book is one of the things which you can read and uh it gives you how how you can transition the business from one to another. So I would also recommend to uh to your viewers, to your viewers to to read this book. First 90 days, uh proven strategies to for getting up to street faster. First 90 days.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Thank you so much, Moïse. You know what? Last week when the recording failed, I was a little bit frustrated, but right now I'm so happy and grateful that we could do this again because this conversation was very, very worth every glitch. And Moïse, thank you so much. So to sum it up, two cans, one great episode. See you all next time. Thank you, Moise.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Thank you so much, Rocky, and pleasure to be with you.